Featured Guests:
Richard A. Hall, Maria Antonieta Reyes, and Joshua Plock  

Retired instructor in the fields of American popular culture as well as military history, Dr. Richard A. Hall lives in Laredo, Texas, with his wife – professor, author, and lifelong Batman fan Dr. Maria Antonieta Reyes – a first-generation immigrant who started her pursuit of higher education and study of popular culture while in the military. She now works with a nonprofit in the environmental community. Dr. Hall holds a Ph.D. in History while Dr. Reyes’s Ph.D. is in the area of Public Administration and Public Policy – both graduated from Auburn University. 

An alum of Columbia University, Joshua Plock is a freelance writer and regular contributor to the House of Geekery. Working from Memphis, Tennessee, he is a frequent guest on podcasts focused on horror, cult films, and comics. We discussed their book We Are Gotham: Finding American Society in the Television Series (McFarland, 2022).

What brought the three of you together to work on this book? 

RICHARD: Dr. Reyes is my wife, and Mr. Plock was my student fifteen years ago. We’re all huge fans of the show. 

MARIA: Dr. Hall is my husband. He’s very much into popular culture. I jokingly say that I'm exposed to these topics by relation, but one of the greatest gifts of our relationship is the deep dive into culture through intellectualism that we can experience with each other. 

Gotham, the TV series, was a great source of conversation in our household. We watched the show and found ourselves pausing the episode to discuss it. The look, the writing, the characters of Gotham all brought the opportunity to dialogue about the many different aspects in relation to our society, to ourselves. 

It's always fun to further explore what tickles our minds during the time we occupy the spectator space to more fully understand our own perceptions. This book was one of these opportunities. 

JOSHUA: Dr. Hall was by far my favorite professor during undergrad, and in recent years I've been fortunate enough to collaborate with him and Dr. Reyes on previous works. 

When he approached me with the idea for this book, I was completely onboard. As a huge fan of the Batman mythos in all forms of media, the idea of looking at Gotham from this perspective fascinated me. 

Do you view We Are Gotham as a textbook, fan item, scholarship, or all of the above? What was your purpose with this manuscript? 

RICHARD: While it certainly has uses in a classroom setting, my own participation is more toward broadening the minds of a general audience. 

MARIA: We approached the book as all of the above. The book, we hope, is a form of conversation amongst friends who enjoyed the TV series that can be scholarly, personal, for a fan, or for someone who may not be familiar with American popular culture or may not understand the fascination with Batman. 

We hope the book invites the reader to look at the show through its characters, stories, spaces, artistic expressions, colors, music, and emotions. We hope it awakens in each of us awareness of ourselves, our likes, attractions, and our culture. The revelation of our own complexity through what we watch, what we listen to, what we practice, what we prioritize, what we define as hero or as villain, cannot just humanize us, but can give us control over the creation of our own reality. 

JOSHUA: All of the above. I truly hope everyone finds something in this book they can latch onto. I tailored my contributions in a way that hopefully anyone from a casual fan of the show to a serious scholar can get something from...or at the very least not hate. 

What is the important of Bruce Wayne's orphan status — what does it symbolize  in American culture? 

RICHARD: Bruce being an orphan in a city that becomes increasingly dangerous is symbolic of the idea that we are all on our own. Despite our support system — in Bruce's case a system that he builds through his relationships with Alfred, Selina, and Gordon — we ultimately face life's trials alone. While many of us remain in the nest until adulthood, Bruce is forced to grow up at a younger age.

MARIA: This is an interesting question I had not considered. It now will be tickling areas in my mind that had not been explored. Thank you. I used to teach US government and acknowledge the central point of separation from our king — our choice to give up the perceived protection of a patriarchal figure — as painful and impactful in positive and negative ways. Now, it will be fun to think about this question in relation to our society. 

JOSHUA: The absence of parental figures to be a grounding influence makes what Bruce does all the more heroic. The great comic writer Grant Morrison once pointed out that a number of people who found themselves at a young age with tons of money and no authority figures would head to Vegas and spend recklessly. Bruce Wayne, on the other hand, decided his newfound wealth and status should be devoted to making sure nobody else in Gotham would go through what he did.

As Americans, we tend to make heroes out of those who take the worst the world can throw at them and still make it through to the other side better than ever. Look at figures like Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Robert Kennedy, and others who experienced great personal loss only to emerge stronger for it. 

Do Alfred or Gordon hold deeper meaning or symbolize something in American culture? 

RICHARD: Both represent the parent figures or mentors that we all seek out throughout our teen and adult years. Even those raised with one or both parents also seek out other adult role models that may be more in line with their own changing values. Some seek these figures in fiction. 

MARIA: The TV series focused on these characters more than in any other version of the Batman universe, which allowed us to explore this question. In the case of Gordon in particular, I believe that the question of the possibility of a cop who may be a guardian within a justice system that is fair and humane — this possibility is hoped for after the issues our society has been experiencing with law enforcement such as racism, corruption, abuse of power, and so on. 

Our complete distrust for this pillar of society forces us to consider whether our society, our practices, our values, our priorities, our culture is breeding the type of law enforcement we have developed. Looking at Gordon allows us to ask these tough questions and look at our role in this matter. 

JOSHUA: They are a necessary element in the evolution of Bruce Wayne. He may have had the best intentions in the world in beginning his crusade against crime, but without these two there is no doubt Bruce would have failed. Alfred especially played a key role in shaping the morals of young Bruce, playing a pivotal rule in his hero's journey. 

On top of serving as a mentor to Bruce, Gordon was an early force for change for the better in Gotham, beginning a trail that the young man would eventually follow to a grand degree when he finally fulfills his destiny. 

You cite Bob Kane's definition of women in the context of explaining Catwoman — Selina in the series: "women [are] feline creatures and men [are] more like dogs. While dogs are faithful and friendly, cats are cool, detached, and unreliable…cats are as hard to understand as women are...You always need to keep women at arm's length. We don't want anyone taking over our souls, and women have a habit of doing that." Have you gotten any feedback from feminists about that characterization? 

MARIA: Aware of the existing history of systems and practices related to sexism, I was still shocked to run into this quote. Everyone I mentioned it to, regardless of their level of feminism, was also surprised. However, this quote is important not only because it reveals sexism, a biased discriminatory system based on gender — where men are good/hero, and women are bad/villains — but because it reveals the absence of the rest of the story. It is the shadow of the truth. Once we explore the character of Selina, we are able to understand more than the binarism presented. 

You write of Alfred, "This is a man of war who will raise the world's greatest warrior." Tell us more about that characterization. 

RICHARD: In the post-1985 DC comics universe, Alfred is established as being a war veteran. In Gotham, that goes further to suggest that he was British special forces. Alfred has known violence. He proves himself in battle throughout the series and begins Bruce's training with simple boxing techniques. 

Alfred understands that in order to provide peace, sometimes some must be willing to act violently, which is what Batman will one day do for Gotham. He will be the threat of violence against those who threaten the peace and the safety of those who seek to live peacefully. In the old adage, "you can’t make an omelet without breaking some eggs," Batman (like Alfred before him) is willing to break those eggs. 

MARIA: I would just like to add that in the show Gotham — more than in other cartoons, movies, and series — Alfred was a much more deep and complex character than I had ever seen before. 

You note that Penguin functions as the villain and savior. Explain this paradox.

RICHARD: Penguin represents the transition from what Gotham was to what it will become. He rises through the ranks of the old school mobs to become one of its cast off, over-the-top rogues. However, whereas Gordon (and later Batman) seek a Gotham based on law and order, Penguin understands what Falcone tells Gordon in the first season: Gotham needs the underworld to provide balance to the city; there is no way to eliminate darkness from a city like Gotham, so controlling that darkness allows the light to go on as unmolested as possible. Penguin seeks to provide that balance. 

Add to that the many times he saves the city: he stops the gang war before it gets too messy and takes over as King of Gotham; he kills Azrael (for good); he stops Jerome's blimp from poisoning the city; and he stands with Gordon in the city's final battle (only to be repaid for his efforts with ten years in prison). Throughout the series, Gotham becomes a city that needs Batman. Throughout that transition, Penguin acts almost as a pre-Batman, a darker, more violent version of the Dark Knight to come. 

In some films, city/setting functions as a character — such as Tokyo in Lost in Translation. Does Gotham function as a character? 

RICHARD: Not only is Gotham a character, it is the main character. Gotham is, in fact, the primary love interest of most of the characters. Gordon, Bruce, Penguin, Falcone, and — to a lesser degree — Fish, Barbara, and Riddler love the city. They see it as a manifestation of who they are even though they are all very different characters. Indeed, they all see the city as a defining aspect of themselves and seek to make the city in their image. 

Gordon wants Gotham to be a city on a hill for law and order. Bruce wants Gotham to be a city of justice. Penguin wants Gotham to be a city that controls the darkness (crime) in order to make it a safe place for the good (his mother). Falcone wants the city to be efficient with everyone doing their part to keep the machinery of civilization moving. Fish, Barbara, and Riddler each see themselves in Gotham's darker corners, which makes the city a safe haven for them to be themselves. 

Any of these characters could leave any time they wish. None wish to go. They all want Gotham. 

MARIA: Gotham, the city, was so important in the series that they named the show after it. We often forget the importance of context, which involves the space we occupy or the ecology we belong to. However, communities, which include the city, are their own ecology, their own organic interaction, and present a context that is alive. 

You note the parallels between the corrupt politicians of the series and the current political situation in the US.

RICHARD: Yes. The parallels are even more pronounced now than at the time the series first aired. We have several politicians today that look and act more like Batman villains than at any point in the nation's history — complete with bad makeup and cartoonish hair. 

In Gotham, the city begins as an easily recognizable American city from the previous century, with corrupt politicians in league with traditional crime figures and big business. Penguin then becomes the bridge between the two worlds. He becomes both the corrupt politician and the crime lord pulling the strings of government. 

At the series conclusion, the city appears to have returned to its season one status: the same mayor back in power, but now with Gordon preventing the corruption of the police force. However, the authorities are aware that the insanity Gotham has experienced is not gone. They will need a Batman to continue to keep up the facade of normality for Gothamites. 

That is very much America today. Every day the news media — and Washington — attempt to convince the public that things have gone back to the way they were before the events of the last seven years; but a closer examination of events shows that it's  simply a facade, and that the insanity is there, bubbling at the surface, ready to return and get worse at any moment. We are a nation in need of a Batman to stem the tide. We will not be as lucky as Gotham. 

MARIA: The whole series can be seen as the rise to the surface of the symptoms of our own corruption. There is confusion about what is a hero, and what is a villain. There is misinformation based on what we are exposed to and what we have grown to embrace as truth that misinforms what we hold on to as true. 

We cling to the idea of a hero and forget to look within and to our actions creating our own reality. We continue to accept mere shadows as truths and fail to look beyond to understand complexities that may allow more opportunities to rise beyond our own created jungle. 

What is the most important or defining distinction between the comics and the Gotham series? 

JOSHUA: Perhaps the timeline of events in the city. There is a noticeable age difference between Bruce and a number of his infamous rogues. He is portrayed as a child around 10-12 while many of those who will one day be his enemies are firmly in adulthood. By the time he is ready to put on the cape and cowl, he could be accused of elder abuse. 

In the comics, the events of "No Man's Land" are deep into the Dark Knight's career rather than in the beginning. That being said, I do love how the showrunners adapted that particular story to fit their needs. 

As for the city itself, Gotham has historically had the ability to evolve and shift with what a storyteller at any given time needs it to be, which has led to the city being an urban Frankenstein creature of design and architecture. The fact that the series has the tone of police procedural and the fact that it is very New York-esque fits perfectly. 

What do you hope readers will take away from reading your book? What is the biggest lesson you hope they learn? 

RICHARD: I hope they see how the series reflects our own society and begin to see popular culture through a similar lens. 

MARIA: I'm against the post-apocalyptic reality most commonly or popularly presented in series as, for example, in The Walking Dead. These shows continue to emphasize a reality that we have been educated for generations to accept, a Hobbesian reality that reinforces only one understanding of human nature, animalistic instincts for survival. 

It's important to me that we look at how society has been presented, what we have been told to look at, and challenge that to reveal it as a shadow. By shadow, I mean the unreal, like in the cave, not the dark side. Can we accept the Hobbesian approach or point of view or see something else? 

JOSHUA: I hope readers gain a greater appreciation of the utilization of genre fiction to look at very real issues. Perhaps also see how characters who have risen to the status of pop culture icons are, in fact, driven by very real and human motivations for good or ill.  

Fall 2022

Leslie Kreiner Wilson, Interviewer and Editor

https://americanpopularculture.com/journal/articles/fall_2022/hall_reyes_plock.htm

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